No matter what time of the day, your going to be bombarded by bugs. Savannah Vintage Rentals provided the perfect dcor for the scene. I think I heard that some years back, some tourists from up North burned the church down. Hilton Head Island
Located on Old Sheldon Church Road, southeast of Yemassee, SC. Happy Planning! Site By Flosites, Rainy South Carolina Wedding by Landon Jacob, Southern Weddings Weekly Round-Up | Southern Weddings. We get so many compliments about how we looked on the wedding daytrust me, its all them! rituals of the 'lavish wedding,' and everyday ways of hooking up and breaking up online. It has something to say about how we think we know what happened but don't always know the whole story. This review is the subjective opinion of a Tripadvisor member and not of Tripadvisor LLC. During the Civil War, it was reported as burned again, but a letter at the time said that it was repairable. The ruins lie amongst majestic oaks and scattered graves. Elope . This number is based on the percentage of all Tripadvisor reviews for this product that have a bubble rating of 4 or higher. I immediately bought it for myself to get ideas for our wedding and Jonathan, not knowing I had already purchased it, also bought it for me the same day. There was someone there with a dog when I visitedhe was on a leash and his owner did pick up his poo. Ive actually been there, and it is just as lovely in person :), Absolutely stunning wedding! the ruins are a great place to take photos and have a nice picnic. All products are produced on-demand and shipped worldwide within 2 - 3 business days. If you are interested in having your wedding here, you need to get in touch with Kathy Sammons at 843.466.0151. We wanted our guests to get a taste of the low country since they came from all over the country. Built around the mid-1700s,. []. The bride and groom are all smiles as they sit and admire one another beneath the low-hanging branches. A must-see, Old Sheldon Church was originally known as Prince William's Parish Church and was built in the Greek Revival style between 1745 and 1753. Prince Williams was burned by the British in 1779 during the Revolutionary War. Old Sheldon Church Ruins: Wedding location - See 522 traveler reviews, 562 candid photos, and great deals for Yemassee, SC, at Tripadvisor. Couples wishing to marry at the site must be members of the Parish. Hope to return someday to see just that. From its first service in 1757 to present day, this historic site has survived wars, weather, and fires. This home is currently off market. Of course he was (as he sat across from me at Starbucks that morning surreptitiously arranging the dinner plans with Kim sneaky guy.) After searching the pages of bridal magazines, (Southern Weddings was my very firsttrue story! Old Sheldon Church Ruins Beaufort SC 3 is a photograph by Lisa Wooten which was uploaded on June 15th, 2016. William Bull I (1683-1755), who is buried here. I am planning a tour for a group of motorcyclists and would love to include this. The ruins are a short drive off I-95 along a road shaded by oak trees. A well maintained and restful place, a nice break from the interstate highway. How quaint it looks with a lace tablecloth and vintage suitcases sitting close by. J: Ali and Jonathan first met on the hallowed grounds at the United States Military Academy where Cadet Brigade Command Sergeant Major Ali relentlessly hazed young helpless Cadet Private Jonathan. Curiosity Trek
Jonathan was in Army training for the entire month of February with no communication allowed, so most of the final details waited until he got back and could give his input! Old Sheldon Church Ruins. My mother started to cry when she first saw me in ita strapless, lace A-line with a sweetheart neckline, by Liancarlo. Live oak trees and Spanish moss are seen along a path that leads to the Old Sheldon Church Ruins on Sheldon Plantation, Feb. 9, 2022, in Yemassee. They only host one wedding per day. One of, if not the oldest, temple style churches built in the United States in 1757, the Old Sheldon Church Ruins is a romantic, spot for a wedding or elopement! An alternative view has more recently come to light, however. Public Just park and visit. Great for Beaufort, not so great for the weddings planned in downtown Beaufort. Way out in rural Beaufort County between Beaufort and Yemassee you will find the remains of this old church building, which was formerly known as Prince William Parish Church. Amid conversations about life, love, and the Army, I happened to ask, Sam, does Sean have any tall friends? As a matter of fact, he did J: At some point in the evening, Sam and Sean hatched a plot to introduce us. We were beginning to wonder if we would see it, having driven several miles along the narrow road it is on. The history of this old southern church can be traced back to twenty-six years before the American Revolutionary War. ), but because my heart was filled with such joy after reading the story of how they met! An interesting, though small, part of history. A: I definitely did not ever haze Jonathan! We kept the traditional theme going with Canon in D for the mothers and bridal party entrance. Enjoy. 100% of travelers recommend this experience. The other main course option was delicious Cheerwine BBQ pulled pork served with bread and butter pickles and Southern yeast rolls. I am having my wedding at the Old Sheldon Church Ruins in October. And remember: a good attitude is like kudzu it spreads. The mix of man made structure, left undone, overtaken by nature. We just completed a physically and mentally demanding tryout and interview process and I was looking forward to a full night of sleep. This is my dream venue. 1751-57 and partially burned during the American Revolution, with its interior and roof rebuilt 1825-26. We planned on getting lunch around the same time, but we couldnt find any place to eat. I remember walking in to Paddys, paying my cover, getting my hand stamped, and seeing a strikingly handsome, tall blonde guy at the far end of the bar and thinking to myself, I hope thats Jonathan. J: It was me. Hendersonville, NC, USA, Last days on Kauai, first day on Hawaii (the Big Island), Fun-n-Profit: Job Ideas for Part-time, Flexible, Seasonal, Temporary and Work-from-home. The Church is said to be the first attempt to imitate a Greek temple in America. The duo took over the ruins around golden hour only to be meet with severe thunderstorms & the threat of tornado. The groom wears suspenders with his gray pants and white shirt and cheerfully grabs the brides hand to walk the property. There is a large parking lot directly across the street. We only spent 20min there but it was still worth the stop. It certainly is worth it to stop by the Old Sheldon Ruins. When we walked across the road from parking into the property we saw green grounds. She is in charge of booking weddings at this venue. At the reception, we used groupings of silver mercury glass vases mixed with hand-blown vintage milk glass vases with assorted shades of soft ivory and pink blooms, accented with magnolia leaves. 97% of travelers recommend this experience. :) Jordan and Landon were my first choice after seeing so many of their amazing wedding pictures at the Beaufort Inn. They do, however, make it to the church on time. The beautiful ruins of the old Sheldon Church in Beaufort County, South Carolina stand amongst enchanting oak trees, their branches draped in Spanish moss. Way out in rural Beaufort County between Beaufort and Yemassee you will find the remains of this old church building, which was formerly known as Prince William Parish Church. Tell us about some of the songs you used throughout your wedding and why you chose them. Parking is opposite the ruins, and there is little advance notice on this busy road, so put your blinkers on and be on the lookout. Tell us your love story. :) You cannot put any decorations physically on the structure due to the historic fabric of the building. Borrowed- My sister in law, Adrienne, graciously allowed me to use her veil. We chose to have a cello and violin duo for the ceremony music. I have seen wedding photos around the ruins. What restaurants are near Old Sheldon Church Ruins? Would be beautiful in the early evening when the sun lowers to shine through the archways. Sheldon Church ruins - detail - Yemassee SC. treat. ), I decided I wanted a simple, elegant, lace dress. Located in the woods and surrounded by towering Oaks, the remnants of this once massive church are a sight to see. Boydton - 23917. Bakery: Rum Runners Bakery Is the road leading in paved or gravel? The Parish Church of St. Helena in Beaufort manages Old Sheldon Church. But inside alternating layers of yellow and pink cake make for an unexpected and colorful treat. Difficult to see / find. A: A couple days later, I got a friend request on Facebook from Jonathan and we began to build a wonderful friendship through written communication that soon developed into something pretty amazing. Jonathan promised me at the rehearsal dinner that he would make sure I got to dance in my courtyard. Did you write your own vows? Home. :), [] West Point grads Ali and Jonathan didnt let a little rain dampen (forgive the pun) their spirits at their romantic South Carolina wedding! Constructed sometime between 1745 and 1753 in the Greek Revival style, the church suffered massive damage during the Revolutionary . Top Hotels Close to Old Sheldon Church Ruins Best Western Point South I-95 & US 17 Exit 33, 3536 Point South Drive, Yemassee, SC, 29945-8516 $89 per night Jan 22 - Jan 23 Stay at this business-friendly hotel in Yemassee. Their care and . 1455389627 The ruins of Sheldon Church built in 1745 near Beaufort South Carolina. blog casual shoes. It was a very busy six months for both of us. Have stopped at this special place over the years . if youre luckyyou are sometimes there alone and the way the sun lights the ruins at the different times of day is beautiful. $9860 + $250 Travel Fee. They look very nice. A great place to take some great pictures. 94% of travelers recommend this experience. Sign up on The Knot to reach more couples and book more weddings! Old- My original proposal ring that was Jonathans grandmothers and the Tiffany pearl bracelet my grandmother gave me when I graduated from West Point. Another classic, timeless song. Got this link from Hart to Heart Media on a wedding they did at the Sheldon Church Ruins. Quite suddenly it was daylight. This review is the subjective opinion of a Tripadvisor member and not of Tripadvisor LLC. The gate and historic marker are easy to see from the road. The weather was perfect for this Easter elopement at Old Sheldon Church Ruins. But, I think practically anyone can take a nice picture suitable for framing with their own camera when the lighting is right. (GloDeFem) CMP, SOC . There is a gravel lot across the tucked ruins, drive safely as cars are flying down this road. In an effort to preserve and protect the Old Sheldon Church, a locked fence has been placed around the ruins. Location: Old Sheldon Church Ruins, 2019 The Carolinas Magazine - North andSouth Carolina Weddings,North Carolina Wedding Vendors,South Carolina Wedding Vendors,North Carolina Wedding Venues,North Carolina Wedding Planners,North Carolina Wedding Photographers,North Carolina Weddings,North Carolina Wedding Planning,Charleston Weddings,Raleigh Weddings,Asheville Weddings, Crystal Coast, Wilmington, Charlotte, Columbia, Low Country. lect. Find out more >. The ruins give an interesting view of how edifices were built in the 18th Century, and the gravestones reflect what people thought was important. The Old Sheldon Church Ruins is a historic site located in northern Beaufort County, South Carolina, approximately 17 miles (30 km) north of Beaufort in the Sheldon area. Informational plaques are very interesting and informative. After intermittent showers all morning, it stopped raining just long enough for our ceremony and then proceeded to pour throughout the remainder of the evening. The building is very visible from the road. Built in the 1750s, its small but a beautiful place to stop and explore. The brick ruins and huge archways are beautiful. The Old Sheldon Church Ruins is a historic site located in northern Beaufort County, South Carolina, approximately 17 miles (30 km) north of Beaufort in the Sheldon area. The minimalist styling to this shoot lets the location and the couple be the center of focus. After parking in the available lot. The Old Sheldon Church Ruins, originally known as Prince William's Parish Church on Old Sheldon Church Road, was built between 1745 and 1753 in a Greek Revival style of architecture. (Sheldon Church). Check out our ruins sheldon church selection for the very best in unique or custom, handmade pieces from our shops. Starting at $499! The photograph may be purchased as wall art, home decor, apparel, phone cases, greeting cards, and more. Your browser is not supported for this experience.We recommend using Chrome, Firefox, Edge, or Safari. (You can just say how many cars would fit) 633 West Davis Street #302. An annual worship service is held the second Sunday after Easter. The cost I believe is $1000 and you may only have a ceremony at this site. Highly recommend. Coming from Beauforton US 21 North, as you approach the intersection of US 17 at Gardens Corner, bear left, continue through the stop sign and go about 1/4 mile. Consequently, the church was burned by the British in 1779. It's not that far off the beaten path (17/21 and I-95). "A must-see, Old Sheldon Church was originally known as Prince William's Parish Church and was built in the Greek Revival. The bridesmaid bouquets were clutch bouquets of monochromatic shades of pale pink flowers with a magnolia leaf collar. Land Project Small House
To capture the charm and natural beauty of the location, the shoot dreamed up by Vitor Lindo Photo and Video incorporates bright colors and florals to bring the old back to life. This gorgeous spot with the enchanting live oak trees was perfect for a styled session! Originally built to imitate a Greek temple, the columns and architecture are still very much evident. Just drive down Oldl Sheldon Church Road; you won't be able to miss it. We were thrilled when they told us they were available for May 4th. There is something so uniquely beautiful about the brick columns and remaining structure standing along in a forest of oaks and Spanish moss. It was definitely worth it in the end to spend the day with our family and closest friends. Whenever I travel there is a particular place I seek out to visit if they exist in the area, ruins. We honeymooned in New Zealand for two weeks before settling into married life. Our story actually begins one rainy Friday night in September in Fayetteville, NC. The Thanks to anyone who can help with the answer within the next few days. If you are a resident of another country or region, please select the appropriate version of Tripadvisor for your country or region in the drop-down menu. When we walked across the road from parking into the property we saw green grounds, live oaks, hanging moss, tombstones and this large brick structure. Photographer: Vitor Lindo Photo + Video The church ruins are located near Beaufort, SC in Yemassee and it's simply breathtaking. As of October 2015, the Old . There is just something about the traditional vows that are timeless and enduring. When did yall get married? Manager a. Check out our old sheldon ruins selection for the very best in unique or custom, handmade pieces from our shops. The cake from Rum Runners Bakery is a divine dessert. He made good on the promise, and after everyone had gone their separate ways, we danced together in the Beaufort Inn Courtyard in the rain. There is something so incredibly enchanting about them. One of the lowcountry's most photographed sites gained several feet of protection. After a few songs and a little bit of goofing off on the dance floor with the rest of the group, I introduced myself to Ali, and after a brief exchange of companies and sports (its a West Point thing), we went to go find some stools so Ali could get off her feet. Wedding Unity Puzzle for the Family! Bridesmaid Dresses: Amsale - Nordstrom Then the old man said: 'You'll leave this at Bates' for me, Sheldon; you're safer than the post.' Handsome Mr. Sheldon said he would. Lustre Papers - fine matte finish, excellent reproduction and longetivity 8 x 10 $40.00 16 x 20 $75.00 24 x 30 $95.00. Burned Twice, by the British and Later by the Federalists During the Civil War. Tripadvisor checks reviews for fraud. There is a large unpaved parking area directly across the street from the ruins. Old Sheldon Church Rd, Yemassee, SC 29945 The Old Sheldon Church Ruins are the ruins of Prince William Parish Church - this greek revival-style church was built in the 1750's by William Bull (owner of the adjacent Newberry Plantation) and had a tumultuous history. Hope this helps. This is the version of our website addressed to speakers of English in the United States. The days most memorable moment actually came after the ceremony and reception were over. 2 3 of israel will be destroyed kjv 2 3 of israel will be destroyed kjv. Known also as the Sheldon Church or Old Sheldon Church, the building was originally known as Prince William's Parish Church. This cake hi, Still debating a smaller wedding? Do the ruins close at dark or would it be possible to do night photography? He took a trip to Beaufort, SC, to get my parents blessing and found the perfect ring in Atlanta. We just got off I-95 at State Rd S-7-48 and made a left on Old Sheldon Church Rd. In addition, the added stress of planning an outdoor wedding ceremony and reception in the spring was realized, as we did have intermittent showers on our wedding day! Very beautiful historical church & cemetery with unlimited photo opportunities. Do you need to schedule a visit on a Saturday? The cost I believe is $1000 and you may only have a ceremony at this site. Is it a paved area or gravel? Our guests praise the helpful staff and . * Destruction of Churches and Church Property by Bishop Thomas, as quoted in The Picturesque Ruins of Old Sheldon Church by Charles E. Thomas in a 1969 issue of Sandlapper: the Magazine of South Carolina. The feeling you get while youre here is so mysteriously, romantically indescribable. We love hearing your kind thoughts! It also sounds fabulous on strings. What Southern details or traditions did you include in your celebration? Frankly, the history doesnt intrigue me, but the mood and textures of this site are compelling. The Old Sheldon Church Ruins is a historic site located in northern Beaufort County, South Carolina, approximately 17 miles (30 km) north of Beaufort in the Sheldon area. The wedding goes off without a hitch. Good luck and let me know if I can be of any more help! We woke up before sunrise and headed out to the property. Also, small weddings are the way to go! Road side parking and additional parking in area across the road from the ruins. We rank these restaurants and attractions by balancing reviews from our members with how close they are to this location. How many friends, family members, and loved ones attended your wedding? Fine Art America 1M followers More information Idiots have spray-painted graffiti, broken headstones and carved their names and even stolen bricks. There is a new black metal fence around to protect the remaining structure. Mar/2023: Lego 70815 - Detaillierter Ratgeber Die besten Lego 70815 Aktuelle Angebote Smtliche Testsieger Direkt les. The church was built as a chapel in the English Georgian style, using the Roman Tuscan order, between 1745 and 1753. No visit to Beaufort is complete without a pit-stop to the old Sheldon Church Ruins (aka Prince William's Parish Church). There are dozens of tombstones and tombs that are hundreds of years old. It is often called Sheldon after Bulls plantation. Old Sheldon Church Ruins 2 More from Lisa Wooten Comments (116) Dora Stork 7 Days Ago Beautiful artwork, colors, and composition! We thought about eloping to save money and keep perspective on what was really important. This number is based on the percentage of all Tripadvisor reviews for this product that have a bubble rating of 4 or higher. The ceremony in the ruins amazing! Post not marked as liked 1. Our pictures are beautiful and they were such an easy and personable couple to work with! Family Subtree Diagram : GenoMap1. In a letter dated February 3, 1866, Miton Leverett wrote that Sheldon Church not burnt. This is the back and the side that is furthest from the road. As of October 2015, the Old Sheldon ruins are not available to the public for hosting wedding ceremonies; however, an annual service is held the second Sunday after Easter. I picked out a few I liked and described my vision to Leah at Alexias Bridal in downtown Raleigh, NC before she made a few recommendations for me. (254) 733-1069. Old Sheldon Church Ruins Are Protected 21 June 2019 A black metal fence protects the Old Sheldon Church Ruins. If you go in the summer, bring your mosquito repellent or plan to move very quickly. Sheldon Church, built between 1745-1753, is said to be the first conscious attempt in America to imitate a Greek temple. The Old Sheldon Church Ruins are about 30 minutes from Beaufort South Carolina or about 60 minutes from . Check out another elopement at the Old Sheldon Church Ruins here! There are three old photos of the church ruins in the Historic American Buildings Survey (HABS) No. After some awkward interactions with his roommate, who seemed content to stay seated by the fire for the ordeal, Jonathan finally got him to go inside and brought me over to the fire where two chairs and a champagne bucket were waiting. Across the road is a large piece of public land where one may park their car. The couple choose this day, not because it was Easter, but for the date. How much time would you allow to check out the ruins and cemetery? Bull surveyed the land in 1733 to form the basic grid pattern of the streets and squares. We set chairs up inside the church, just as the pews would have been set up facing the altar, which is actually still standing and walked down the aisle where the original one would have been. Known also as the Sheldon Church or Old Sheldon Church, the building was originally known as Prince William's Parish Church.The church was built as a chapel of ease in the English Georgian style, using the Roman . I handed the ring back and, evening dress, heels and all, climbed the ladder, and crawled onto the roof! This number is based on the percentage of all Tripadvisor reviews for this product that have a bubble rating of 4 or higher. May 4th, 2013 There is limited parking in front but cars here "ruin" shots as they can be seen. So I can say I was proposed to twice and proudly wear both rings! What was the biggest challenge you had to overcome while planning your wedding? A classic three-tiered wedding cake, with vanilla butter cake and topped with classic buttercream frosting. So dark, in fact, that I didnt even notice that Jonathan didnt give me first ring back until I scurried back down the ladder to show Jonathans roommate. I would love to know where the umbrella/parasols are from. Our first dance was to Moon River with a live violin accompanying the DJs piano version. You cant walk through it but you can get pretty close. - United States--South Carolina--Beaufort County - America - Old Sheldon Church - Sheldon Church Ruins - Prince William's Parish Church - William T. Sherman Headings 2021 marks the bicentennial of the birth of Henry Luther Sheldon, founder of Middlebury's Sheldon Museum of Vermont History (founded 1881). Photography: Casey Hendrickson Photography | Floral: Chelish Moore Flowers | Engagement Ring: Diamonds Direct | Ribbon: Honey Silks & Co. | Makeup: Erin Ashley Makeup, So excited to share this amazing news from our fri, Living for glamorous moments like this styled shoo, Black cake. Did you have something borrowed, blue, old, and new? Not ones to back down easily, they instead yielded the inclementweather into artistry, resulting in a wonderfully romantic ruins wedding dream. The Baynard Mausoleum in Zion Chapel of Ease Cemetery on Hilton Head Island > Prince Williams Parish Church The bride is styled in a white gown with a modern neckline and sleeves. Please see our, Get Our Wedding Planner App On Your Mobile Device. The site is amazing!!! Greetings from the Past
Makeup Artist: mirror|mirror The charming details and warm ambiance make this a truly magical experience, reinvigorating Old Sheldon Church once more. Not only did these two share the responsibility of telling this story, but they ping-ponged back and forth in such a way that I imagine theyd be ridiculously fun on a double date! This Anglican church was primarily paid for by Lt. Gov. The Old Sheldon Church Ruins is a historic site located in northern Beaufort County, South Carolina. We want to come this Saturday. There's no fence at all and it's right off the highway. What was your most memorable moment about your wedding day? Be certain to read the plaque on the wall. Nice to just walk around but perfect for photography. Lovely place for a quick respite or meditation. See it here. We sat down to enjoy the fire and admire the ring that Jonathan proposed with, his grandmothers wedding ring from the 1920s. 93% of travelers recommend this experience. Dripping in southern bride elegance, Lexis look is one that is perfectly on trend. But suddenly, there it was. The brides bouquet was in monochromatic shades of champagne with porcelain peonies, garden roses, hydrangea, lambs ear and seeded eucalyptus, with magnolia leaf accents. With a heaping floral arrangement in the front, this couple can make a fun getaway look even better. Purchase a print of Old Sheldon Church Ruins from the Wytchery. I really enjoyed my visit. . If you are a resident of another country or region, please select the appropriate version of Tripadvisor for your country or region in the drop-down menu. 226. The Parish Church of St. Helena manages both properties. Not because I turned Jonathan down the first time, but because he had two rings and two plans, and if you know the guy, nothing Jonathan does is ordinary! Sherman's army burned the church on their drive through the South Carolina Low-Country. Typically, the word ruin isnt synonymous with weddings but in this case, its a Just outside of Charleston, South Carolina, youll find the site of this charming styled shoot Old Sheldon Church Ruins. The Old Sheldon Church Ruins is a historic site located in northern Beaufort County, South Carolina, approximately 17 miles north of Beaufort. As a side, we had smoked gouda macaroni and cheese. Floral Designer: August Floral & Event Design You must be married by someone who is ordained by some church. 58 Typically, the word "ruin" isn't synonymous with weddings but in this case, it's a Just outside of Charleston, South Carolina, you'll find the site of this charming styled shoot - Old Sheldon Church Ruins. Caving
Among the ruins were found Many relics one of them being a deed from Luke Strong to John Aborn dated january 5. There were actually quite a few challenges. Thanks for sticking with us for a full year. Old Sheldon Church Ruins (Yemassee) - All You Need to Know BEFORE You Go. It is now a popular site for wedding ceremonies, photographers, and ghost hunters. Photographer: Landon Jacob / Planner: Bethany Boyles-Hewitt / Ceremony Venue: Old Sheldon Church Ruins / Reception Venue: Soiree by Southern Graces / Wedding Cake and Caterer: Southern Graces / Cellist: Austin Fitzhenry / Brides Gown: Liancarlo / Paper Products: JWD Paperie / Brides Earrings: BHLDN / Hair Stylist: Amber White of Kaleidoscope Studio Salon / Makeup Artist: Linda Burton Makeup Artistry / Brides Shoes: Badgley Mischka / Bridesmaids Dresses: Lace Sheath Dress by Adrianna Pappell / Grooms Attire: Army service uniform / Groomsmen Attire: Military service uniforms and personally owned tux, Ive always thought weddings in the rain were so romantic, and Ali and Jonathans gorgeous day confirms that! Were such an easy and personable couple to work with to walk the property your most moment... Physically and mentally demanding tryout and interview process and I was proposed to Twice proudly... Special place over the years personable couple to work with proposed to Twice and proudly wear both!. Near Beaufort South Carolina, approximately 17 miles North of old sheldon church ruins wedding cost before settling married... On their drive through the archways in Fayetteville, NC the feeling you while. As they can be traced back to twenty-six years before the American War. Get in touch with Kathy Sammons at 843.466.0151 with our family and closest friends the end to the..., handmade pieces from our shops far off the highway cars here `` ruin '' shots as they be. Heaping floral arrangement in the front, this historic site located in northern Beaufort,! The American Revolution, with its interior and roof rebuilt 1825-26 recently come light! To form the basic grid pattern of the Parish attempt to imitate a Greek temple, the history of site. Thrilled when they told us they were available for may 4th alternative view has more recently to... 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